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“Non-Religious Bible Classes”? You’re Kidding, Right?
Posted On:Apr 23, 2008
The State attorney general has put the seal of approval on Bible classes as long as they do not endorse any particular religion.
(Roll eyes here).
Evidently they want to teach the Bible’s impact on literature, art and politics in these classes. Actually, if THAT is all they want, those aspects of the Bible’s influence are already addressed in art class, English literature, and political science. So a specific class that addresses the non-religious aspects of the Bible without endorsing Christianity (roll here) are not needed, in addition to being completely ridiculous.
So what is Herron trying to accomplish? Is there really NOTHING else to work on in our public schools? Really? (Big fat eye roll here)
Posted by Jody Lee Back to the blog »
Reader Reactions
Posted by ( Lisa Thompson ) on April 24, 2008 at 3:17 am
I believe thats whats wrong with our school system now. We don’t have the bible in the school. Most children have not even stepped foot in a church or even picked up a bible.We wonder why kids are so bad this days, school shootings, selling drugs ,on drugs, now the big thing is beating the crap out of someone and posting it on the internet.I don’t care if the course is Non- Religious.Just as long as kids start reading and studying the bible. God will take care of the rest. If you don’t want your child to take the course thats your right, it’s an eletive. But don’t take that right away from my child.
Posted by ( Gabriel Zimmer ) on April 24, 2008 at 6:25 am
“Given that the Holy Bible is ... the most important book that exists in the world, it has no place in the public school system”
( rolls eyes )
Has recent history not taught us that it would be advantageous to have some familiarity with world religions? For that matter hasn’t all of recorded history taught us something of that? I believe fundamentals of the Koran, the Vedas, the Pali Canon and other Buddhist sutras should be taught to our children, so that they can understand the world they live in and perhaps not be astounded when they hear that religious differences even today are the root cause of the largest part of human conflicts.
Leaving these subjects to be learned outside of school, if at all, has only two outcomes for the majority of young people: ignorance and misinformation, or a very one-sided knowledge of world religion.
Should we leave “the most important (books) that exist in the world” out of our children’s education for fear that the state might be interpreted as embracing a particular one? Will video games and television teach these things outside of school? Let the schools touch on them all, then, lest by omission the state endorse Atheism.
Posted by ( Sienna Dawn ) on April 24, 2008 at 8:13 am
Yeah, let’s take away more American rights. You have the right to roll your eyes all you want, but the children who do believe also have rights and most of them have been taken away already because some Atheist has been offended. God forbid they were offended. What about the children who were offended when they were told they couldn’t pray in school anymore? Every American has a right, use yours as you will, but don’t you dare sit there and try to make it my childs right or anyone elses. We also have that choice to make for ourselves, thank you!
Why is it okay if Christian rights or other religious rights are taken away because it offends, but it’s not alright for an Atheist to have to hear a peep about a Christians rights? You don’t believe that’s fine for you, but others do and I do recall that the Pledge of Allegience and other important documents from our history that gave you the freedoms you so express do as well. Who did the president mention when he asked everyone to pray after 911? It’s okay for the American people to ask for prayer when something bad happens, but ignore him and his exsistance when everything is rosey?
And I agree with Gabriel. It is important to our history as well as our futures. Is the war these childrens fathers and mothers are giving their lives for not laced in religion among so many other things? I guess the children should be kept ignorant of that fact though.
Posted by ( Tammy Matheson ) on April 24, 2008 at 12:33 pm
It is always the same story-you say that you believe in the Bible, but you don’t want it taught??? That does not make any since. I believe in the Bible every word of it, I wish we could return to the reason this county was founded and sought out for (FREEDOM TO WORSHIP). I would LOVE for the Bible to be taught at my children’s school, we go to church, but the Bible says to assemble yourselves even moreso as you see the day approaching. If everyone was taught the Bible then maybe they would realize it is a sin to kill, steal & destroy, adultry, fornication and homeosexuality & etc. The reason this country is in this shape is because we let a handful of nonbelievers take prayer out of everything!!!
Posted by ( Truman Adkins ) on April 24, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Insted of screaming, why not go outside and enjoy this beautiful day. They’ll be arguing about the Bible long after either of us are long gone.
Posted by ( chris ) on April 24, 2008 at 5:50 pm
I like Gabriel’s point of view on this issue. I would only add that kids can do just that later in life by choosing to obtain a education at a liberal arts university. The issue with utilizing the Bible in our primary and secondary education systems is ensuring that there is objectivity. Does anyone really believe that here in the bible belt that a bible class can be taught with objectivity and without embracing the interpretations of a particular ideology? Seems far fetched to me. If folks desire their children to be taught the bible in school then they shoud either home school them or send them to christian schools. Using tax payer dollars to teach religious ideology is ridiculous. I suppose we should also support using a religious test before a person can take office, or do we essentially do that now anyway? Methinks we should ask those on the far right who hold the constitution up for all to see if religious tests are o.k.
Posted by ( Dawn ) on April 25, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Again, its an “elective” no one is forcing anyone to take the class. I ,for one, would encourage my children to take it. They’ll have more knowledge of different religions than the children of the parents who object to the classes being taught in schools.
Posted by ( Jody Lee ) on April 25, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Okay, here’s the scoop:
Lisa, I think you missed my point. It is precisely BECAUSE the Holy Bible is the most important book in the world that I do not want it taught in a government-run school by government employees. No offense to public school teachers (who are underpaid, underappreciated, and at the mercy of a government cirriculum), but I cannot imagine any institution less qualified to teach the Bible than the government. Something this sacred should never be at the mercy of interpretation by the government. God’s word should be taught at home, at church, and/or in Christian schools. You are more trusting than me - I would not trust the teaching of God’s word to a government institution. I want God firmly implanted in my child - not in my child’s school. It is a simple distrust of the government to do the job properly that prompts my reaction.
Gabriel, my fear - as I just explained to Lisa - is not that the government would be seen as endorsing a particular religion. That is the least of my concerns. You bring up a good point, Gabriel, about young people having at least a generic outline of knowledge about other religions and how they differ from our (yours, mine, whoevers) own. My own church took on this task, offering regular nighttime seminars for adults about other religions. Ideally, I would like to see more churches take this on - it can only strengthen your flock to familiarize them with other religions. But as far as teaching a variety of religions to young people, in a government school - I’m a little nervous about that. Again, your point is good, and I realize not everyone has a church home - I guess my distrust of the government when it comes to the word of God runs pretty deep.
Sienna, I think my reply to Lisa addresses many of your concerns. Evidently I did not sufficiently explain WHY I do not like the idea of the Bible being at the mercy of the public school system. It is not a fear of offending. Now, that aside, do not think I do not see the growing prejudice against Christians. And if the government were to infringe on my worship, THAT would be a infringement on my right to worship as I see fit. But as far as a right to teach the Bible ("non-religious" - how is that even POSSIBLY??) in ANY government-run institution - is that a right? Even if it is, I don’t want it, but seriously - constitutionally, is it a right? Nothing sarcastic, just a sincere question - anyone?
Tammy, I apologize for not making my sentiments more clear. I hope the above paragraphs explain my skiddishness about the idea of the Bible ending up in a government classroom.
Truman, you’re right. It’s a gorgeous day, thanks be to God!
Chris, we agree. The reasons we agree are different, but the end result is the same. But I’m not getting the tie-in about taking a religoius test before taking office - where did that come from??
Dawn, Granted, it is an elective. But I am not as comfortable as you are with the idea of my teenager being taught anything about any religion as interpreted by the public school system.
Thanks for your comments. Anyone else?
Jody Lee
Posted by ( Robert W ) on April 26, 2008 at 9:52 am
chris and jody,,,,,great points!!!! influincing a child’s religious beliefs is not right. let them choose their own paths, when the maturity and comprehension levels are at a sufficent level to do so.
sienna,,,,children can still pray in school,,they cannot be led in prayer by a government employee(teachers) and about the athiest thing(although i 100% disagree with it) ,,do you remember the line,,just not lest ye be judged?
Posted by ( Jody Lee ) on April 26, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Just to clarify, Robert, your comments that “influencing a child’s religious beliefs is not right”, in my opinion, does not hold true for parents and church. Parents, with the help of the their church, can and should bring their child up with (in my case) Christian values and a love for the Lord. Influence away! Then when the child is of age, they can make their own decision about how they want to worship.
I just feared that your comment suggested NO ONE should influence a child when it comes to religion.
In my own family, 3 young children were brought up in a particular demonination and, as adults, only 1 of them has chosen to stay with it. But all three of them have benefitted from the values and morals with which they were raised and all three of them are still followers of Jesus Christ.
Exploring other religions is often a result of natural curiousity. But I am more comfortable with doing it AFTER a certain level of maturity is reached, as you say, Robert. Unil then, nuturing a thirst for God’s word in young people and a love for Jesus Christ is - for me - not an option, but a duty. A duty that belongs exclusively to a child’s parents and the church of their choice.
You know, this interesting conversation with all of you is making me wonder if now is the appropriate time to approach the very tricky and controversial debate about the children recently removed from their parents at the compound in Texas.
What do you all think? Are you ready? Robert, Lisa, Gabriel, Sienna, Tammy, Truman, Chris and Dawn, plus anybody else who has been reading along but not participating yet - are you ready to go there?
Jody
Posted by ( Renee Tester ) on April 26, 2008 at 5:43 pm
By all means, lets keep the Bible out of school. God forbid children learn the true story of Creation. WE will all be held accountable for the “religious beliefs” that we give our children. Some kids could only get it through a school.
However, Christians keep giving up rights. That is ok. There isnt anything done about that because it is “Christianity”. They need to sit back and watch the world go to ruin.
So,yes indeed take the Bible out. Bring books in to teach of same sex marriage, and same sex parenting. Bring the Health Dept. in to give condoms and how to use them. Ruin the sanctity of Abstinence. Let them bring the guns in to shoot their enemies. They are just expressing themselves. Let them speak to teachers with disrespect. Let teachers (some, not all) teach them the lie about Creation. Thank God for the Christian teachers we do have out there.
WHATEVER you do. DONT BRING THE BIBLE in the school.... Some child might accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. He might read the 10 commandments and have morals. Because his parents didnt take him to church. All because someone didnt want a Bible class (elective class that is) in the school.
Christians it is about time we stand up! There is a such thing as the Great Commission.
Posted by ( Jody Lee ) on April 26, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Renee, I must reiterate my request that someone point out to me where our constitutional right to have religion taught in government-run schools is mentioned in the constitution. I am sincerely curious.
Dear, you are simply all over the place. I agree with you wholeheartedly that children should learn the true story of creation, the sanctity of abstinence, and that Jesus Christ is our Lord. The only thing we appear to disagree about is who we should trust to teach our children these truths. I do not want the government to teach them.
You say that for some children, school is the only place they might possibly be exposed to the Bible, since some parents do not attend church, or - on the other hand - choose to instruct their child in a religion that is different from yours and mine.
You are right in that those children might not grow up with the Bible as a guide. But whereas you would trust the schools to fill in that gap, I would rather trust God to do so. I have known many adults who do not believe in God and/or do not believe in Jesus Christ. But I have not known a single adult to make that choice without having ever had the opportunity to pick a Bible, walk into a church, or fellowship with Christians.
Jody
Posted by ( Robert W ) on April 27, 2008 at 9:32 am
jody,,i see where you are coming from with your response. i have no problem with parents of their children to raise them in a religious household. i have an overall problem with a government school teacher imposing his/her beliefs on a child in a public classroom.a few of our fellow bloggers keeps thumping the “ELECTIVE” clause. that is irrelevent. it does not belong in a public school. although some kids don’t have the option of their parents taking them to church,,,in my neighborhood,,,the area churches have a van or two to pick up and drop offf any willing child at no charge.and,,,just for giggles,,why do folks believe that we have a constitutional right to everything?
Posted by ( Renee ) on April 27, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Robert,
That is Awesome the churches in your neighborhood have a van to pick them up. Not many do that anymore because of insurance, and of course now the gas prices.
How many kids in your neighborhood see the van and it makes them want to visit the church?
We do have a constitutional right to everything but Christianity. If it were The Book of Mormon, or others. I bet it would be just fine!
Posted by ( Chris ) on April 28, 2008 at 8:34 am
Jody,
I see where my post was rather vague on the religious testing point. My point was that (as it seems to me) the evangelical fundamentalists in this country want to have it both ways. They believe we were founded as a Christian nation and as such they want a particular religious dogma to pervade not only our schools but our government. I see so many holding up the Constitution in their left hand as support of a belief in limited government and in their right hand they hold the same document to support a governmental role in the fowarding of the Christian religion. So, my point was that it is rather contradictory to want the government out of your life on one hand and on the other expect the government to intrude in our lives through the public support of a religion. We know the Constituion forbids laws which say that a person must be Christian to hold office. If the founders wanted Christian ideology to be the basis of public policy then wouldn’t it be logical to insist that only Christians be the ones who make such policy? You wrote this: “nuturing a thirst for God’s word in young people and a love for Jesus Christ is - for me - not an option, but a duty. A duty that belongs exclusively to a child’s parents and the church of their choice.” That is an excellent point but it would have been better if you added “not the government”
Oh yeah, you might find it interesting that I have read that there are some who are making the story of the Texas Compound about unecessary government intrusion into peoples lives. It’s not about the pedophilia or possible incest but about the government interferring in peoples lives again. Unbelievable!
Renee,
It’s simple really, keep your religion at your home and your church and out of my government. If you desire your child to learn the things you referred to in your posting then teach it to them or send them to a Christian school that does. It is not the Governments job to teach my kid your religious ideology. As for the “true story of creation”. should we really teach our children in public schools such a contradictory lesson? Should we teach them one day that the earth and the universe is billions of years old and the next day teach them that it is only 10,000 years old?
Tammy,
Please research a few things like the Treaty of Tripoli, the writing of Madison, Adams, and Jefferson, and most importantly the origins of the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance. Noone has ever made a law forbiding you or anyone else to pray. I respect your faith and belief in God. It’s just not right to use the government to teach YOUR beliefs to my kids.
Posted by ( James Wilson ) on April 29, 2008 at 9:16 pm
He may ber talking about HUMANTITIES. You know that sort of history class we all took in college greeks to romans and the church. How all Religions spring from the Jewish faith!
Maybe they kid will learn how religion is alos divided by economic. Poor go to BAPTIST, Middle Class are you Methodist and so on.
As long as they have no preachersm talk about religion as who, where and what it came from that is fine with me. No Visting authorities that would open the door to preachers. Just humantities would be fine with me. there is no reason highschool kids could not learn college humantities nothing hard about it.
Posted by ( Ben Applegate ) on April 30, 2008 at 8:39 am
You Christians can be so rude and pushy. I guess your idea of spreading Jesus’ message is by forcing others to be exposed to it instead of allowing them to have the freedom to choose to seek it out.
So many of you think that putting the Bible in school, having prayer in school, teaching Christianity in school should be your “right” and that it’s not fair that you can’t teach your religion to our children. My opinion is this: Religion is for the home and for the church. Keep it out of our schools. Many of you Christians don’t actually understand America and want every kid to be taught to pray and read the Bible so they will become Christians. You can’t see past this selfish desire that it’s in fact as un-American as it gets. Non-Christians aren’t clamoring for the right to teach children that religion is wrong or evil or that Jesus is somehow bad. Non-Christians want religion to be up to parents and pastors. The simple fact that you can’t understand that Christianity is only one way of believing in God and that if you espouse one religion, you’re going to have to teach the morals of all of them, which would drive you insane. How would you like your little kids coming home preaching Wiccan ways?
Keep religion out of public school. Go ahead and send all your kids to Christian schools. I mean, that’s what you want anyway is a separate Christian state, right? When do we have the Christian and non-Christian bathrooms and water fountains?
Learn to mind your business. Learn that freedom of speech is not some license to preach anywhere. Learn that other people don’t believe the same things that you do and they have the right not to be exposed to your ideas in a controlled setting like school.
Posted by ( Linda McKinney ) on May 01, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I like you, Ben!
I posted a response days ago, but apparently it didn’t make it past the censors. You pretty much summed it up for me.
Posted by ( Jody Lee ) on May 01, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Au contraire, Linda. There must have been a mishap in submitting your response because there has been NO censorship on this end. Feel free to try again!
Thanks,
Jody
Posted by ( James Wilson ) on May 01, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Well the only people to ever harm my family have been Christians.
Masny college studies show that the louder they proclaim their faith the more damage they will do to you. Recently when my sons were talking and they came up with some crazy idea on how to scam people. I ask them why they even think of this stuff. Don;t the prastice their religion ( my exwife takes them to church I gave up on the hipocrities long ago).
All three of my sons answered well dad that is how everyone at our church thinks.
Screw the poor anyway you can!
If you do drag our school system back to the 14th century tell the kids how religion in the USA is also bases on Economic. The Poor go Baptist and the Middle Class Methoidist and so on.
Remember this they sat in England for 19 months deciding what to put inot your bible and what to leave out of the King James Version. I would trust no man to build my religion from scratch.
Posted by ( Linda McKinney ) on May 02, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Jody, I am very glad to hear that it was probably a computer glitch and not censorship.
I think Ben summed things up quite nicely for me.
Thanks for the clarification.
Posted by ( Richard Thompson ) on May 03, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Ben and Linda,
I am a Christian and as such I will pray for you and your families. Jesus gave a great commission and that was to go forth and preach the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Although your letter has angry udertones I still have Christian love for you. And I rejoice when people persecute, or say bad things about me because of my profession of faith, because Jesus promises a wonderful eternal life. As the Bible tells us, “every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord.” As for the school issue, I believe that because it is an elective then you or your children do not need to take the course. When we talk about rights, remember it extends to everyone and not just the few who seem to be offended at everything. Our country was founded on this principle, among others, and I am proud to be an American. I intend to bring my children up in a home where God is very welcome. One only needs to open their eyes at the level of violence in our schools and the need for metal detectors and armed officers in the hallways to understand that this class is very important.
Posted by ( Chris ) on May 07, 2008 at 7:13 am
Richard,
“One only needs to open their eyes at the level of violence in our schools and the need for metal detectors and armed officers in the hallways to understand that this class is very important.”
Does that mean you are opposed to non religious bible classes? Or are you indicating that such classes should be taught according to your beliefs but remains non religious? What if the Catholic bible is used in place of the King James Version? How about the “non religiious” bible class being taught by a Jehova’s Witness? For the class to remain “non religious” should it be taught by an atheist?
I’m curious as to how you would suggest teaching a bible class which addresses the level of violence in our schools without inserting a specific theological ideology?
Posted by ( Tammy Matheson ) on May 08, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Well I had this big long letter wrtting out and gave you all many reasons why to make the Bible an option of electives to be taught by a teacher who attends college and then they get paid poor salaries by the government. The government only chooses their ciriculum not how they teach it. but I decided its not worth my time because no matter how hard we try to see the good in everything there will always be people who COMPLAIN and it will never end until the day of judgement. I just hope you are ready to go (where YOU choose to go) You have your oppinion and I have mine, and I choose to be a good whole hearted loving christian and to treat others they way I want them to treat me (the golden rule-in the bible) I would just rather have a better impact on the youth today they are offered everything under the sun, but the son and the main necessity in life which is LOVE!
Posted by ( Robert W ) on May 10, 2008 at 8:32 am
Tammy,,,,,WHAT?
since when is the average teachers salary of $35,000 become poor? $15,000 at Wal-Mart is a poor salary! Yes,” the government selects the cirriculum, but not how it is taught” THAT IS THE PROBLEM! the teachers will be implementing their ideas and beliefs on the very impressionable minds of our youths.whether it is an elective or not is of no importance.just one question Tammy,,, Are you a government school educator?
Posted by ( Lisa ) on May 15, 2008 at 3:42 am
I have read all the blogs. The bottom line is It’s an elective take it… don’t take it… your choice. Do any of you worry about what Math or science class your friends kids are taking. Do you even know what classes the kid next door are in? I Myself have more to worry about then what other peoples childern are taking as there elective. I worry about my own and let them worry about theres.Live and let Live. Kinda simple isn’t it.No fussing or fighting that way. But maybe its just to simple.
Posted by ( Lewis Loflin ) on May 20, 2008 at 2:35 pm
This comment is absurd, sort of: “influencing a child’s religious beliefs is not right. let them choose their own paths, when the maturity and comprehension levels are at a sufficient level to do so.”
But how to do with a school material permeated with alternate pseudo-religious propaganda?
Re: Teaching the Bible in Public Schools. As one who openly opposed hanging the Ten Commandments in the Sullivan County Courthouse, and who has written openly against Christian theology in the Herald Courier, I say yes, teach the Bible in school. Shocked? Here’s why:
First, many schools are teaching a white-washed introduction to Islam, a violent religion far worse than anything today outside Marxism. Christians don’t practice violence, outside an occasional lone individual. Islam openly teaches violence against non-believers.
Second, school material in general is highly anti-Christian, with underlying tones of Marxism, liberation theology, and Humanism. If they want to promote these pseudo-religions, it’s only fair Christians get an equal hearing.
Third, so-called “environmentalism” is another pseudo-religion, an irrational, pagan earth-worship that holds Nature as somehow divine and is equal to man, a theological view. This pantheist/New Age nonsense too holds many anti-Christan undertones and it’s followers are often just religious fanatics that misuse science to promote a political/religious agenda.
Finally, the misuse of evolution to undermine the Christian faith. I’m an evolutionist myself, but the evidence is clear there’s no “natural” mechanism to explain the Creation of the universe. And I do mean Creation unless one can supply verifiable scientific proof the atheist view is correct. There is none. They need to teach the scientific method so one understands just what a “theory” really means in science. Darwin believed in God, and warned when an intelligence was involved, natural selection was voided.
It’s time schools get back to academics and away from politics, religion, and social engineering. But if they want to keep promoting anti-Christian and often anti-Western themes, then I must stand with Christians and demand they get equal treatment.
Either remove the secular/atheist’ pseudo-religions and politics such as the man-made global warming cult, white-washing Islam, etc. or allow the Christians an equal opportunity. I prefer it all be removed and get back to teaching English, math, and science, including the scientific method.
Posted by ( D.H. of Virginia ) on May 27, 2008 at 10:22 am
Boy, if you want to bring the Devil out of people just mention teaching children and young people about Jesus Christ, God or the Bible. Let me first say that I don’t need anything or anyone to convince me one way or another whether or not there is a God, there is. Now that being said teaching the “Bible” in public schools I believe is a mistake, and here’s why? First of all there are too many interpertations of what the Bible says, if there wasn’t we would not have hundreds of different denominations of christianity. Secondly, with that in mind, who could teach a Bible class without bias toward one interpertation vs. another? And finally the Bible, religion, morals, christianity should be taught at home and through one,s Church, not in the Public Schools.
Today our educators struggle to educate our youth. They are wedged between the states and federal government regulations and parents that do not get involved with the education of their children unless their child is offended or repremanded by the school. Our schools go far beyond what they should just to get children to stay in school and graduate at least High School. Today more and more parents let the child dictate it’s educational future. The parents do not insist their children get a high school education. The public school system, buy state and federal laws, has to provide an education to any and every child that desires to obtain one. The school’s uses every resourse they have at hand to accomplish the goal of increasing the graduation precentages in their of their students. The drop out rate is on the rise and the school’s needs the help of the parents and the communities to turn that trend around.
We need to concentrate on teaching advanced science, math and english classes and get away from “teaching to the test” and the lame No Child Left Behind system that is attributing to the increasing drop out rate plague. With the amount of time allowed each day in school their isn’t enough time to add another subject without taking away from the criticaly required courses needed to graduate.
May God bless our young people and instill in them the will to learn, and bless our educators not to get frustrated and give up on our youth. Bless the parents and guardians and give them wisdom to see that their child attends school everyday and gets that education that it is entitled to.
Posted by ( Chris ) on May 29, 2008 at 7:28 am
D.H.
Excellent post.
Jody,
How is it that I never knew there was this vast conspiracy of marxism, liberalism, and environmentalism to destroy the world? Are you sure that Michael Savage doesn’t post here under the screen name Lewis Loflin? To think we are in the presence of greatness, bigotry, delusion, paranoia, and conspiratorial nonsense all at once gives one a feeling of awe. Kind of like that self realization of how miniscule we really are one gets when they see the Grand Canyon for the first time. I am honored....I think.